Changing Places are at the centre of the latest episode of The Level Playing Field Podcast.
The episode can be found here, or via your chosen podcast platform and the full transcript is available below.
Liam: Hello and welcome to the Level Playing Field podcast. My name is Liam Bird and I am the fans liaison officer at the charity. On today’s episode, we’ll be focusing on changing places toilets. And a few weeks back, I went to Bolton to witness the opening of a new changing places facility at the stadium. And we’ll be hearing and supporters in the club on why this new facility is important, not only for the fans, but the club themselves.
But before we use the power of technology, and take us to Bolton, I wanted to provide a little bit more information on what the changing places toilets are and also just a little bit more information in general. And I couldn’t think of anyone who I want to talk about toilets more than access auditor at Level Playing Field and queen of toilets, Nikki Baker.
Nikki: Hi, Liam.
Liam: what I really want to do is use your knowledge and expertise and kind of explain what changing places toilets are. So, my first question is the obvious one. What is a changing places toilet?
Nikki: So, a changing places toilet is a lot larger than a standard accessible toilet. It’s also got very specific equipment in, so it’s got an adult sized changing bed and it’s got a hoist. So, they’re the two vital pieces of equipment that differentiate them from a standard accessible toilet.
Liam: Do you know how many changing places toilets there are, roughly? In the UK at the moment?
Nikki: There are just under 2000 registered changing places toilets. (This podcast was recorded shortly before Leeds United opened the UK’s 200th changing places, at Elland Road)
Liam: We should clarify, they’re not in stadiums, they’re all over the country. So, service stations and supermarkets.
Nikki: Yeah, in all different types of venues.
Liam: So, what are the challenges when implementing a changing places toilet into a sporting stadium?
Nikki: I guess one of the first things is actually finding the space to make sure – because of, like I said, they are larger than standard accessible toilets.
Liam: How bigger? How much larger than a regular?
Nikki: So, it’s 12 square metres. Standard accessible toilet is done on centimetres or millimetres rather than square metreage.
Liam: Okay.
Nikki: Yeah. And my maths, I’m afraid, isn’t quite picking in quick enough to work out that difference for you.
Liam: That’s okay. Just for people to know, Nikki’s just come back from Australia, so her jet lag is harsh,
Nikki: Yes, apologies. Some of things may not be quite as forthcoming as usual.
Liam: Appreciate your time, though, Nikki. Space is one, obstacle. Any others?
Nikki: I guess for a lot of sports clubs, it’s actually the funding off them. So obviously the money, because they do have specialist equipment in. So, they are more than a standard accessible toilet. One other thing that is more prevalent in football than in other sports is the segregation. So, where the position of the changeing places is, because if it’s in the home end, how do then away fans access it and vice versa? whereas you don’t get segregation so much in other sports.
Liam: Do you by any chance know how the rate of increase in the numbers of changing places at sporting venues have since been, say, like the last five years, for instance?
Nikki: It has increased significantly. I can’t tell you the exact numbers, because everyone has started actually taking them more seriously and realising there is the real need for them. And I think disabled people are also expecting – who need the facility – are expecting them more.
Liam: When we talk about kind of sporting stadiums, I think people’s minds automatically go to football. And that’s a game of, well, probably 90 plus a lot more minutes than where it used to be. which might be manageable for some supporters, but if you think about cricket or tennis or motorsport, where it goes over quite a few hours, it’s a full day in one venue. How much work still needs to be done in these kind of sporting venues?
Nikki: Some of them are really improving now and really trying to get those facilities there. Some of them may provide temporary facilities if they are only an event that’s happening, say, once a year. However, sometimes the temporary facilities aren’t always up to scratch or quite up to the specification that they should be. Particularly things like cricket. I believe there’s still quite a lot of work to be done with changing places. That being said, there are some cricket grounds who I believe now do have them.
Liam: What resources are there out there for people who might need to use these facilities and trying to map out their match day?
Nikki: So, there is a website called Changing Places, and if people Google it, that will come up straight away and it can actually show where all the change in places are. And it shows if they do meet the specification or if they’re there, but don’t quite meet specification. And normally there’s a photo or two. And also, even if you’re driving between one place and another, you can do a route planner and it can show you where the changing places are on your route and as well as on your route if they’re just slightly off your route as well, so that people can choose to go off their route if they need to.
Liam: Nikki, I’ve got your permission to say this. You are a changing places toilet user yourself. You have other passions away from attending live sport. Explain, how does sport hold up as an industry, comparing to live music, cinemas and retail – that kind of area?
Nikki: It really depends on kind of the size and type of venue. So, places like a lot of shopping centres now, most of them have suitable changing places facilities, things like theatres – they’re very few and far between – cinemas, it kind of depends if they are in a bigger complex. If they’re a standalone cinema, I don’t think I personally have come across changing places in a standalone cinema yet.
Liam: Is there any mandate now from government or regulations regarding new buildings and changing places having to be installed?
Nikki: There is now, but it is only for new buildings with a capacity of over 350 people. Not quite sure how they work out the capacity of each building.
Liam: There’s a guy outside clicking people in and out.
Nikki: But yes, when there’s a building got a capacity of over 350 and is a new build, a changing places should be now installed. I don’t know if that is being implemented fully by building control. I’ve only seen bigger developments in that, that have had changing places since. I don’t know if smaller ones are still installing them.
Liam: So, in theory, any new stadium or stand should have a changing places facility installed.
Nikki: Yes, in theory.
Liam: In theory, yeah. so, clubs listening to this, who are looking or thinking about installing a changing places facility, what advice would you give them to go to for resources or possible help with funding or anything like that?
Nikki: Okay, so obviously you can come to us at Level Playing Field. We can give you some help and advice on the specifications with it. You’ve obviously got Changing Places campaign who can also help with it. And speak to your local authority with regards to funding and just, I think they are so important and they can really make a difference to somebody’s whole day and experience.
Liam: Perfect. Thank you so much, Nikki. I am now off to Bolton. Thank you so much.
Nikki: Thank you. Bye.
Opening of Bolton Wanderers’ new changing places facility
Liam: So, we are currently sat in the wellbeing hub outside of the – what’s the name of the stadium again?
Stephen: The Tough Sheet Community Stadium.
Liam: and I’m here, talking to Stephen, who is the father of a level playing field, Ambassador Morgan, who is staring at me right now. How are you doing, Morgan? And we are here because today is the opening of a changing places facility. Something that I know Morgan will get some use from and something that I know you as a family have been campaigning for, for many, many years. So how does it feel that it’s finally here?
Stephen: It’s a really big day, not just for Morgan, but we know there are one or two other fans that support Bolton Wanderers who need this facility. But, yeah, it’s been kind of long in the waiting. Ten years ago, Morgan came here on a work experience, did some work on access and this was one of the facilities, he thought was needed then. So, it’s nice that it’s finally arrived.
Liam: So just to stress that, Morgan is non-verbal, so that’s why he’s not doing a podcast, but does use an audio device, to assist him in speaking.
Stephen: Yeah.
Liam: So just if people are wondering, where’s Morgan? That’s right. So, what have been the challenging then – challenges of trying to get this changing places built into the stadium?
Stephen: Well, I think the positive thing was quite a few years ago, the Premier League and the flitted to develop changing places facilities, which football as a big stadium with lots of people arriving, need a facility like this. So, I would say something like 80% of the Premier League clubs have got these. Maybe only half of the Championship, have got the facility and within League One, which is where Bolton Wanders are at the moment. I think when I was looking recently, I may be wrong, but I think there’s only Exeter City and ourselves now that have got that. Of the 24 clubs. So, it’s a facility that all clubs I feel should have, but it’s very Important.
Liam: As a family, I know you’ve done pretty much the whole of the 92 within the Football League. How difficult then is it for you to plan to go to a matchday when you know that a majority of clubs don’t have a changing places facility?
Stephen: We have used a special app which has been developed for changing places. So, people can use that app, and it will identify the nearest one to where you are. Or it will identify which changing place facilities are near to a particular location. And it can also show you changing place facilities which are en route. If you plan a route from say Manchester to London, it will show you that. So, we use that app quite regularly and just have to build in additional time, to get to nearby facilities, en route. It works, but it’s not ideal because obviously people, you’re in the stadium for probably 3 hours, so you really need facilities within stadiums rather than nearby.
Liam: This is probably focusing on a negative, but can you give an example of whereabouts you’ve been caught short and you’ve had to use a toilet? I mean, what is that experience like for yourself? And most importantly, what’s that experience like for Morgan?
Stephen: Yeah, I mean you might have to access a normal disabled toilet, but the truth is that quite a lot of people will find themselves having to change people on the floor. And one, it’s not good for carers to have to move people around. It’s not safe for the individual – it’s probably not healthy in terms of health risks. if you can find a safe and clean place to change, you might do that. Yeah, I mean, it’s not dignified, it’s not healthy. And, so a facility like this is. Although it’s for a relatively small number of people, it’s essential.
Liam: For Morgan, how’s this going to change his match day coming to the stadium?
Stephen: It makes a big difference in terms of planning, the kind of time you need to take to arrive before the game and so on. And it also takes away that anxiety. Know, like all of us, we might find that we need to go to the loo during the game. You’ve got that option now, which really wasn’t there safely previously.
Liam: And for yourself, for someone who I know works regarding equality and inclusivity, I mean, how proud is it that you now have a football club that actually provides a service that a majority of clubs don’t actually have?
Stephen: I mean, it’s great. I mean, Bolton Wanderers as a club has got a very strong ethos of working within the community with a lot of community partners, theatre, the university, the local authority, community groups. And we’re in a new initiative, again, which has been developed, the wellbeing Hub, which is going to be available to lots of different community groups before match day, but on other days as well. So, it’s part of the changing places facility will also help that. But the club really is a football club, but it’s also a very big community organisation as well.
Liam: Is there any story whereby you can tell the listeners the significance of a changing places facility for yourself and your family, either being because I know you’ve been to World Cups, you’ve been to FA cup finals like you guys, if there’s football on, you will go to it. I mean, is there any stories about which you can kind of shed a listener whereabouts has really been a huge, significant impact for you?
Stephen: Well, I think, for example, Morgan, you mentioned earlier has been to see all 92 football league grounds over his period of supporting. And one of the final grounds that he needed to get to was the new Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. And again, in terms of planning for that, not only was it great for Morgan to celebrate getting that final 92, but it’s a facility which has got three changing place toilets within it. So it was, in a way quite fitting that it’s something that was welcoming Morgan into the stadium. So, I could think of a number, but that might be a, maybe a nice one to kind of finish on.
Liam: Well, I say it’s the last one. I’ve just thought of another one for anyone who’s listening to this, who is trying to work with their club to bring about a change in places facility. As someone who has been trying to get this in place for many years, I mean, what advice would you give to them?
Stephen: I think what’s been important really at this club is to be frank and changing ownership and the leadership with Sharon Britain and the new leadership team at the Wanderers over the last, three or four years since potential bankruptcy. they’re a leadership team that’s committed to the football club as a football club, but also as a community organisation. And when we talk to individuals, all fans, they feel it’s a club that’s willing to listen and to try to address issues which maybe wasn’t so possible previously. So, I think maybe patience is another feature. The Supporters’ Association have been working very closely with the Disabled Supporters’ Association. So, that I think partnership has been very important and yeah, just advocate and explain why facilities might be needed and show good examples.
Liam: Is there anything I’ve missed that you want to add?
Stephen: I don’t think so. I mean, I suppose the final thing would be that with Morgan and getting this facility here now, finally, he’s been supported by a lot of people to campaign and Level Playing Field. I mean he’s an ambassador, yes. But the team yourself and Owain and others, Ruth have been consistently supportive. So, I mean that will be another thing, is for people to really work with Level Playing Field as a campaign advocate.
Official opening
Speaker to the room: Thank you for coming. It’s really important, Phil, if you just bit more.
Second speaker to the room: Yeah, literally 30 seconds. But for me, for the four years that I’ve been here, the work that happens and goes on within the community and walking in this room and seeing friends of ours and fans that we’ve got here, I find it absolutely is what it’s all about. Yes, the football is important. We’re all absolutely crazy on the football. We love it. But for me, it’s doing good piece within this community and all working together that makes such a difference. Thank you all. Thank you everyone. Neil and Phil are unbelievable. they’re so committed to what they do. They do everything brilliantly from the heart and it’s so appreciated. Thank you everyone.
Speaking to Phil Mason
Liam: In front of me is Phil Mason, who is the COO of Bolton Wonderers, as well as the CEO of Bolton in the Community, that’s right?
Phil: Yeah, got that.
Liam: Good. So, we’re here today because Bolton have installed a changing places facility into the stadium. I mean, for you, what has been the process to get this in place and how proud is it of a day for you?
Phil: Well, first of all, it’s a really proud day. We at Bolton Wanderers, I think, we’re ahead of the curve on lots of things when the stadium was built. But because of lots of different circumstances, we’ve fallen a little bit behind. So, this is a real day when we can catch up and actually provide a space, that is so necessary in terms of the process. It’s been a challenge, there’s no doubt about it. Identifying the right space within the, building and then getting it all project managed to get all the designs up to speed and then identifying the funding for that and the grant funding that’s come through, from the Department of Levelling up Housing and Communities has been a real godsend in terms of being able to provide the space, not only, of a particular quality, but the highest quality,
Liam: From speaking to other people. I understand in a former life you were the chaplain of the club.
Phil: Still am, yeah. Still am the chaplain.
Liam: So, the idea of community is something that would be something that you fully understand?
Phil: Oh, absolutely. I believe passionately that as anchor institution in the town, Bolton Wanderers has got to play its part in the community, has got to be there for others and give people, an opportunity where perhaps they don’t have that opportunity. And the opening of this, wellbeing hub along with, the changing places and the quiet room is just giving that, extra boost and extra lift up for people and an opportunity for people to be able to be part and parcel of the club in a way perhaps they haven’t been before.
Liam: So, do you understand then the importance of when a club does say it’s a community club? You can actually say, now, actually, Bolton is a community club because we’ve got facilities here.
Phil: Yeah, I think we’re very proud of the facilities that we’ve got. And Bolton Wanderers in the community, is a very thriving charity anyway, but this is an extra arm to, what we can do, coming out of this wellbeing hub. And the very fact that we’ve got those facilities that allows people to be able to access the game in a way perhaps they haven’t been before. And of course, it’s not just about the game. There’s a lot of activities that take place here during the week. There’s lots of conferencing and, the changing places will be open for those occasions, and, to provide a changing places for the whole of this area, for the Middlebrook Retail park, which is one of the biggest retail parks in Europe. So, there are going to be people that are going to need that facility. And I think that being on the M61 corridor means, that being on the changing places app, people will be able to identify a changing places right next to the motorway, come off the motorway. perhaps use the facilities of the hotel, and also the changing places facility as well.
Liam: So, you’ve got supporters like Kayleigh and Jack and Stephen and Morgan, who have been campaigning for this for so long. What kind of challenges have you faced then, trying to get this in place?
Phil: Well, it has been a challenge because the club has been going through a tough time. So, this is a facility that we’ve wanted for many, many years. But when, only four years ago, the club, was going into receivership and possibly into liquidation, only hours away from that, then getting anything maintained in the first instance was an absolute nightmare because there was no cash there and as a consequence, the rebuild of the club started four years ago under the direction of Sharon Britton and the new owners. And, they’ve always had a passion to do the right thing and to use the power of football to do good in the community, which, of course, was music to my ears. So, it’s been a journey to get there and bless them, the people that you mentioned have been absolutely fantastic and been very patient in waiting for this moment, and I’m so pleased that we’ve been able to deliver it for them now.
Liam: So, Sharon’s name has been mentioned a lot, a lot of people praising how a lot of clubs probably want to do this, but particularly I think, disabled liaison officers will go ‘I would love to have this in my club, but trying to get the buy in from the people above has been very difficult’. What advice would you give for anyone who really wants to install one of these places, but are finding it difficult to get the ear of the people who essentially write the cheques?
Phil: Absolutely. And I think, it is difficult, there’s no doubt about it, because under previous ownerships I couldn’t have had these sorts of conversations very easily. It was so easy with Sharon. But I’m sure that Sharon herself would be one to say to clubs how important it is to be that beacon of light and beacon of hope in your community as your club. And therefore, these kind of facilities are, absolutely vital and essential, and particularly in this day and age, for people to be able to access spaces properly and with dignity and without humility.
Countdown ‘54321’ and then cheering
Speaking to Kayleigh
Liam: So, we are in the wellbeing hub outside of the, stadium name?
Kayleigh: Tough Sheet Community Stadium.
Liam: And we are here today – I’m sorry, in front of me is Kayleigh and Jack – We’re here today because a changing places facility is going to be opened up and something that hopefully will be of use to Jack on a match day, and also the family in general. So, I mean, how are you feeling today? Like something’s being done about something that I know you’ve raised and campaigned for.
Kayleigh: Yeah, it feels amazing that we’re finally here. It seems like it’s been a long time coming, and it’s a long time ago since we originally sent the photo of Jack being changed on the floor here. But it’s absolutely fantastic that we’re here today with the changing places ready to be unveiled. So, I think it’s fantastic work from the club.
Liam: The reason that, Jack isn’t speaking is Jack is non-verbal. Kayleigh is speaking for Jack, or on behalf of Jack, but Jack is smiling, so he is loving what’s happening today.
Kayleigh: His face says it all, doesn’t it Jack?
Liam: You spoke about that photo that you took. How difficult was that to take that photo and show it to the club? Because I’m sure most supporters don’t like criticizing their club. I mean, what was going through your mind when you sent that?
Kayleigh: To be honest with you, it was really difficult. And as a parent, it was heart-breaking. It’s never a photo you expect to have to take of your child, but it was getting to the point where I thought, something needs to be done. And if we weren’t here today, being able to have this facility here today, in a few more years’ time, we would seriously have to look at whether it was still feasible to be able to bring Jack. So, behind taking the photograph was to get change, not just for Jack, but for everybody. Because if we were in that position, then there were other people that were in that position, and possibly in a much more difficult position because the person that was needing to change was bigger, an adult. So, yeah, it was difficult, but it’s what needed to be done. And it did spark conversations. It was tough conversations with hard subjects covered, but I feel that it was listened to.
Liam: You spoke about the challenges of, possibly giving up and not coming. What changed your decision? Because obviously this didn’t happen overnight. So, I mean, was it a case that you saw the club moving in the right direction?
Kayleigh: Yeah, absolutely. I think if we felt that we weren’t being listened to and there wasn’t the change coming, then obviously we would have to reconsider. I know there is the changing places around the corner, but if you need the changing places there and then it’s not feasible. It would have been a case of getting in the car, driving round. We would have lost a whole half of the game, if not more. But the fact that the club were open, honest, looking at moving forward and engaging, that is really what made us stick it out.
Liam: Going to the match today isn’t just yourself and Jack. You’ve got the whole family with you. I mean, how does this impact how you attend a game as a family?
Kayleigh: As a family, it makes it much more easier. Obviously, when we use the changing places, James will be able to come in and help and we can make that a bit more speedy of a process and then we can all sit together and enjoy the match. At the end of the day, we’re a football family. We love the football and we want to be able to enjoy that together. We don’t want to be having to run off somewhere, me and Jack, while James and Jack are watching the match and then coming back to get a bit of a running commentary of what we’ve missed.
Liam: James is the dad, by the way. He’s, just outside of mic, in case you’re wondering who James was. You spoke about family and I think something that gets spoken about a lot is a footballing family. And some clubs may call themselves that, but if they don’t have certain facilities in place that actually represents the community that they live in, it might be seen as a stretch. I mean, how does it feel for you as a fan, to finally see something whereabouts it can help other people who may need to use the facilities as Jack will be able to come and watch a game at Bolton?
Kayleigh: I feel that Bolton are definitely a family orientated club and I think since the takeover of Sharon, it’s definitely been instilled within the club. It is going to definitely, benefit more families and more families are going to be able to come and I think that’s absolutely amazing. Jack’s got some friends that’s never been able to attend the football who are actually now saying we’re going to come and watch football. So apart from it, just as well as it just being family, they’re going to be groups of friends being able to come. And I’m sure that’s not just going to be the same for Jack, it’s going to be the same for other people, I think it is definitely going to improve the amount of the local Bolton people that come to support our local team, because of this changing places.
Liam: So, moving away from Bolton, I know that you go to away games as well. you’re currently in League One. I mean, how difficult is it to map out your match day when you’re going to an away game if you don’t know if they’ve got a changing places or not?
Kayleigh: So, we do have a look on the websites and so far, out of all the away games we’ve attended, we’ve only ever had access to one changing places at a ground who currently aren’t in League One. So, this was last season. So, what we have to do at the moment is we have to go onto the changing places app, we have to find the nearest changing places to the stadium and we have to attend that before we get to the ground. Hope and keep our fingers crossed that Jack doesn’t need a change whilst we’re at the ground and then dash off to that nearest changing place again post-match for our travel home. Our last journey was a six and a half hour round trip. So, as you can understand, you’ve got the six and a half hour traveling plus your 90 minutes of football and that’s a long time to not be changed if you need it.
Liam: Do you see hope regarding changing football then? Do you think it’s getting – with the club like Bolton and League One who are investing in a changing places facility? Do you see that trickling down the football or sport in general? I don’t know if you’re just football fans.
Kayleigh: I think there is definitely a glimmer of hope. It needs to improve. There’s major improvements that do need, not just in football, across all sports, but there is that glimmer of hope. That Bolton Wanderers, when this stadium was built was absolutely amazing and it was definitely, the stadium at the time. So hopefully we’re setting that standard again and other places around here will soon follow suit.
Liam: Anyone’s listening to this who wants to campaign regarding changing places? what advice would you give to them?
Kayleigh: Just keep going, keep going, don’t give up. Keep campaigning, because we will get there. Every small step of change is going to lead to that, big overall and one day, together we will make this world more accessible for all.
Liam: And anything you want to add that I’ve not added myself?
Kayleigh: Just thank you really, to Level Playing Field in everything that you’re doing. Because at the end of the day, you raise that platform, you campaign and altogether with yourselves, with the fans that are campaigning – and thank you to Bolton Wanderers for doing this.
Liam: Thank you so much. Thank you so much to Nikki, Keeley, Jack, Stephen, Morgan and Phil, as well as everyone at Bolton Wanderers for hosting us on the unveiling of this new changing Places facility. If you’d like to know more about changing places, then there is a link in the episode description of this podcast. Or just Google changing places toilets. If you’d like to know more about the work that we are doing at level playing field, then give us a follow on social media or visit levelplayingfield.org.uk Or there’s a link in this podcast. You can also google as well. until next time, have a great matchday. Bye.
-Ends-
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